In this episode I sit down with an incredible guest, the former CMO of Facebook, and mom to 2, Samantha Wu. A powerhouse marketing executive, Sam has a rich background spanning multiple continents with roles at tech and financial giants like Meta, Amex, and Visa. Not to mention, she even took a detour to attend culinary school, adding a unique flavor to her already impressive background.
Her story is a blend of professional success and personal challenges, offering us a peek into what it takes to thrive in both areas. During our chat, she opens up about what pushed her to take a step back from her fast-paced career. She talks about how the pandemic, personal duties, and the constant grind made her realize she needed a break to reset and focus on herself. This pause isn’t just a break from work—it is a time for self-discovery, reconnecting with friends, and getting back to her physical health. Her journey shows how taking an intentional break can help you grow both personally and professionally, a gift of a lesson in an approach to finding fulfillment in your high-powered career and personal life.
🌟 The Catalyst for Taking a Pause
During our conversation, Sam delves into the personal and professional experiences that led her to take an intentional break from her career. The pandemic, family losses, and relentless work stress played significant roles in her decision.
“I needed just to pause and invest in my family and have the time that I never actually given myself. It was a combination of the pandemic, coming off a pretty stressful set of roles, and my kids entering a new chapter. It wasn’t an easy decision, but I felt it was necessary for my well-being and my family’s.”
🧘♀️ Self-Discovery and Personal Growth
Sam used her career break to focus on her physical health, reconnect with friends, and explore new interests. This intentional pause provided her the space to invest in herself, which she believes is crucial for long-term success.
“I feel like I have a low cup that’s overfilling. There are so many things I want to read and do and think about and write. This time has allowed me to really dive into those interests and feel more fulfilled.”
🍳 Lessons from Culinary School
One of the most fascinating parts of Sam’s journey is her decision to attend culinary school. This experience, though seemingly unrelated to her marketing career, enriched her professional life with new perspectives on leadership, organization, and creativity.
“I learned more about organizational design and leadership and management in the kitchen that I take and bring with me in my corporate life. Cooking professionally taught me so much about teamwork and efficiency. It was a challenging but incredibly rewarding detour.”
🏡 Necessity of Support Systems
Sam discusses the necessity of robust support networks, including childcare strategies like the au pair system, and how these support structures are crucial for managing a demanding career and family life. She stresses the importance of setting up these systems to alleviate some of the pressures of balancing work and home responsibilities.
“You have to be very intentional about what you need and how you set it up. It's about creating a support network that works for your unique situation. Having the right support makes a huge difference in managing both career and family effectively.”
🎯 Redefining Success and Career Goals
Motherhood has significantly reshaped Sam’s career ambitions, shifting her focus from external validation to personal growth and making meaningful contributions.
“I care less about what other people think and more about what I think. Success now means learning, growing, and making an impact where it truly matters. Motherhood has taught me to prioritize what’s truly important in my career and life.”
🗣️ Effective Communication and Advocacy
Sam offers tips on how to communicate career transitions and personal needs confidently, both to oneself and to others. She underscores the importance of surrounding oneself with supportive peers and mentors to navigate these changes effectively.
“Surround yourself with those types of people… don’t make yourself small in the room. Advocate for your needs and find your voice. It’s essential to be clear about what you need and to ask for it.”
🔄 Navigating Career Transitions
Practical advice on making career pauses and transitions work in your favor is a central theme of our conversation. Sam talks about being realistic about the challenges and trade-offs involved, and planning for a smooth reentry into the workforce.
“You need to be realistic about what works for you because that initial transition back is hard. Set up a plan that allows you to ease back into your professional role. It’s all about managing expectations and being prepared for the transition.”
⏳ The Impermanence of Challenges
Sam reminds us that all challenges are temporary and that time will always bring new perspectives and opportunities for growth. This outlook has helped her navigate the highs and lows of both her personal and professional life.
“When things feel really hard, the thing you have to remember is that time will pass. Everything is transient, and new opportunities always come. Keeping this in mind has helped me stay grounded during tough times.”
Sam’s story is truly inspiring and shows the immense value of taking intentional pauses to reset and recharge. Her insights offer a fresh perspective on balancing a demanding career with a fulfilling personal life. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by the constant grind, this episode is a must-listen. It might just give you the encouragement you need to take that much-needed break and discover a renewed sense of purpose in both your career and personal life.
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[00:00:41] Hello to this amazing community today I have Samantha will a CMO and advisor who happens to be my former manager and also the former CMO of Facebook at Metta. [00:00:53] Sam is someone so special who I was lucky enough to learn from. Be guided by and be encouraged [00:01:00] by. [00:01:00] She's the mother to, to middle and high school aged kids and has such great experience in perspective on integrating motherhood, your own personal passions and career into your life. This conversation is enlightening and really goes deep into intentionality. I think you're going to love the lesson shared let's speak. [00:01:20] Welcome, Sam. I am so glad you're here today. I'm so excited to be here with you, Barbara. So for our listeners, I think the best thing that came out of my experience at my last job was the opportunity to work with Sam as my CMO. We only overlapped for. Like a short period of time together. But in that time, I was lucky enough to learn so much from her and she may not know this, but she played a massive role in my decision to transition from my career in tech marketing to focus full time on new modern mom. [00:01:58] So Sam, instead [00:02:00] of talking our usual marketing talk today, I want to focus the conversation on how we navigate cutting through the chaos of balancing career in motherhood. Let's get into it. And I'd love if you just wanted to start off by sharing a bit about who you are. Like, give us your elevator pitch. [00:02:18] Yeah, I'm really excited to be here with you, Barbara, and I'm really excited that you're doing this. So, people always ask me what my elevator pitch is, and I would say that I am A working mom. I'm a marketing executive professionally, but what's most important to me are my children, my family, and that includes my human children and my four legged doodle baby as well. [00:02:41] So professionally, I really love working in spaces where it's an intersection between technology and culture. That's fascinating for me. And I get really drawn to companies that are trying to build new categories and changing how consumers do every day. So that's who I am. I'm [00:03:00] actually Australian and was born and grew up in Sydney, but eventually made it to the US and live in between worlds of being Australian and American and also Chinese. [00:03:11] And so I embrace all of those parts of who I am. And I bring that at home and also obviously in the professional space as well. The first time we actually had a phone call, I didn't pick up on your accent. And then when I met you finally in person, I was like, wait, I don't remember that. You have just such a global. [00:03:28] background and I'm sure that's really helped you in developing these consumer first marketing approaches with that perspective. So you're, you are a mom to a 12 and a 15 year old. You are a CMO and you're an advisor to a couple of different tech companies, but you are at a super interesting point in your career journey right now. [00:03:48] So can you kind of set the stage for what life looks like at the present moment? Yeah, I've basically been working. Since college nonstop and have been in the [00:04:00] professional world working across a lot of different companies from Amex to Visa to Meta in the web three space. And I last year decided to take a pause and just take some time off to reassess before jumping into another full time operating role. [00:04:16] And I think that was a combination of, I think these past couple of years have been I think challenging for many people with the pandemic, raising children, and I just really felt like I needed to reset and have some time for myself. It was a scary decision for me because I'm one of those people who have never stopped and go from one job to the other. [00:04:38] So taking that intentional pause, I think, was something that I really needed to do for myself so that I could be just a better person for my family. My family as well as whatever I do next. I think I will bring Kind of a renewed perspective to how I think about my professional life as well I cannot wait to dig in more to this intentional [00:05:00] pause later in the conversation, but speaking of busy lives chaos like Just for fun, I would love to get an understanding of how you wind down in the evening. [00:05:12] What's your kind of wind down routine look like? Yeah, I mean, I think, I would say that obviously your routines change based on kind of what stage you're in right now, like whether you're working a crazy job, how old your kids are. But for me right now, because my kids are a little older, there's this kind of like, when your kid's a little, I used to call it the witching hour, right? [00:05:36] It's like, dinner, bed, bath, like getting them down. Like I'm obviously not in that situation right now. And so for me, the evenings are really around just making sure from a household perspective, right? Like the school lunches are done, that the kids have their homework done. And so there's kind of a process for me around making sure that we're organized for the next day. [00:05:57] That is part of my routine because I, I don't like to [00:06:00] wake up to kind of this frenzy, right? I'm quite thoughtful about, okay, well, like what's for breakfast tomorrow? Do the kids have everything they need packed? What is the schedule? Who's doing the pickups? But for me personally, once that is all done, I really like to just have some time to, I love to read, like read or catch up quite frankly on television shows, which usually I don't have as much time to do or listen to music, but it's really just a time to kind of. [00:06:26] Do something for myself, connect with my husband, talk about what's been happening through the course of the day. And as we move into kind of the summer, the evenings get longer and it's brighter out. And so I often like to take an evening walk with my dog in the summer. And that's a really big part of my wind down. [00:06:44] Very happy to hear that, , the stage in which I'm in with an almost four and almost two year old is not always going to be a marathon. You're, what you call witching hour, I call, , the marathon of the evening because it is, it literally feels like a marathon. It's like, as soon as my au pair is [00:07:00] off, I'm on and my husband's on and, like, we don't stop until my toddler goes to bed, which at this point is, like, 9 p. [00:07:06] m. So I'm glad to hear that, . Simmers down a little bit and I love the evening walk with your dog. You also know I have a Bernie's mountain dog and my walk with him is in the afternoon and like, that's my decompression hour right before my au pair gets off. Okay. Thank you for just giving us the insight into who you are and hopefully listeners now have a, Good impression of who you are. [00:07:28] I wanted to share my first impression the first time we sat down. I must have been around, I think like 36 weeks pregnant. I was, I was large and I drove down to your house and I was kind of on my way out from attorney leave and you were on your way in to this new role. And I was really excited. You CMO I've ever gotten to work for. [00:07:50] And Prior to that, I was used to reporting to like non marketing CEOs. So I was really excited to have somebody to like speak my language. But not only that, you [00:08:00] were also the first female I've had the chance to work for. And to be honest, my attitude at the time was like, I'm just going to lay out all my cards and be brutally honest about how I'm feeling at this point in my life. [00:08:13] So I shared with you how nervous I was to go out on maternity leave the second time around, because my first time I had such a horrible experience, which maybe I'll share in a future episode. But I also shared like how nervous I was to have a second child. And the impact it would have on my ability to feel like I was able to master like this really high intensity job that had long hours. [00:08:34] Like I felt like I'd finally gone into a routine with one child and now I was about to throw a second one in and I was just worried about my career. And your response has stuck with me for the last two years. You said to put things into perspective that when you were at Metta, a lot of your peers and other female leadership had. [00:08:54] Who operated at the same level as you had some version of either like a stay at home spouse or had [00:09:00] multiple nannies to support their family and their household needs. And that just was such like an aha moment for me that like, okay, these high achieving women are not able to do it all on their own. And so I would love if you can just share a little bit more about like the dynamic that you witnessed in terms of like what the norm was for the setup for these executive women. [00:09:22] Yeah, a topic I love to talk about. I mean, let me just start off by saying I, I, I truly believe that you can have A fulfilling career and you can be a mother, but I don't believe you can have it all. And so it might depend on how you define what having it all means, but the one thing that you can never renew is time, right? [00:09:45] Time is perishable. And so when you make a decision to be a mom and to have a career, right, you, you are it. Inherently making decisions around trade offs and what you're going to do, what you're not going to do, like, because you can't be [00:10:00] everywhere all the time and do everything. And so I think. I think when women are told they can have it all sets them up for failure, because somehow you feel like you're not doing enough as a mother or you're not doing enough as a senior executive. [00:10:15] And, and obviously what that looks like and what that feels like is dependent on you as an individual and what you think, but also your family set up and the company that you work for and the culture and what that encourages, right? And I think the working world has evolved a lot since I had my first child to my second child. [00:10:31] Um, but I've also. Become more wiser around what's important to me and what are the things I'm willing to give up and not give up. And so I think the reality is we all need to support network and In order to be able to like balance both and what that looks like for your family I want to recognize is also driven by like Economic factors and like the reality of, do you have family close by? [00:10:56] Do you have a family that's really involved? And I hate to make [00:11:00] generalizations, but they come from somewhere, which is, I do think if you have a high stress or demanding role at the senior C suite level, you do need a support network. And oftentimes you, that means you need, you know, childcare is instrumental. [00:11:17] You need au pairs or nannies, if you're lucky to have like. Parents or in laws that are close by who want to be part of the fabric. I think those are really instrumentals to success and you need a partner that is willing to work with you. And my observation is that I have noticed that there are a lot of very high powered women that I respect and they either have stayed home husbands or husbands who have careers, but they are, they have this thing where like, The husband's taking a backburner or they take turns. [00:11:49] I have a friend who, who is like, I'm going to take a backburner on this stage of my career, so you can go do this thing. Now it's my turn. And now you and your backburner. And so I just think it's [00:12:00] unrealistic to assume that like, both people can be fully focused on their career, traveling all the time on calls at all hours of the day and run, you know, A household without some kind of support network. [00:12:14] The other thing for me personally, what I found is what I would call the mom time, right? Which is mom friends, whether they're working or not, who have been instrumental in. all of the different phases of my working life as a mom, right? The stay at home moms who will, at a drop of a dime, get your kid if you're stuck in a meeting, or the working mom who understands the kind of schedule you are and we put together a carpool. [00:12:43] I think it really takes a lot of community to be able to balance those two. And, and the only other thing I would say is, I think oftentimes, and I've gone through this myself personally, which is, I always think about quality versus quantity. Like I [00:13:00] was just never the mom that was at school running the PTA or at every food drive or volunteering for lunch service because by the sheer fact that I worked full time. [00:13:10] And so I was quite deliberate of like, The things that I would invest in at school with my kids and really had to get comfortable with not quantity, but really quality. And I think it was definitely harder when the kids were younger because they would say, mom, why aren't you at school? Like the other moms. [00:13:27] But as they get older, I think they understand that you have this other life and you do these other things. And so it does get easier. That's good to know. And I think, You know, my hope would be right that as they get older and they recognize that, like, Hey, mom's doing this for herself. And I have such a cool mom because she's got this really amazing job or whatever it is. [00:13:49] And I want to go back to your second point, which was around creating your mom tribe, because personally, this is something that like I struggled with, and it's probably. [00:14:00] a result of having kids during COVID. And a lot of my friends leaving, I live in San Francisco, like leaving the city, moving closer to home or just like moving out of the Bay Area. [00:14:11] And so I feel like I've really kind of struggled with this like loneliness in motherhood. And so saying that like you need to find your mom tribe, like resonates so much with me. And I'm curious, like, You are not from the Bay Area. So how did you make your mom tribe? Like, where did you meet these people? [00:14:28] And how did you feel like you built those relationships? It's really interesting because I think It's been different at different phases of my life. I think when I was a new mom and having my first child, you know, you join all of these mom groups and many people find really deep friendships from that. [00:14:47] For some reason, I never really found my tribe through that. And maybe it was because I was working and most of the moms weren't working. I, I don't know what it was. And so I think my first phase of my tribe was actually my [00:15:00] friends, right? Like that were in the area and we were all in a similar stage of life having kids. [00:15:06] And so It was really my own network, whether it was through school or through other connections, where I kind of formed this group of friends where we were all having our first and we shared that. As the kids got older and we were kind of in the school system, right, like from preschool onwards, I think you find your mom friends in kind of two ways. [00:15:27] One, Like if your kids get along, you just by natural, by default end up becoming friends with some of these moms and hopefully like your kids BFF, you really get along with the mom. And I've been really fortunate that I have lifelong friends from like my daughter's friendships since preschool. And, and for me, I also found my mom tribe of like other working moms in the school system, right? [00:15:52] You, you kind of like seek each other out and. And so that was kind of like, the second phase, which is, I [00:16:00] think it's really through the school and the community you kind of connect with these moms, initially because of your children, and then over time, you just meet other moms, whether they work or not, that you just really get along with, irrespective of whether your kids are like the best of friends, but you just kind of have this bond and you feel like you're really connected to each other. [00:16:20] And now, interestingly, we, like many people, got a dog during the pandemic, and now I have this whole mom tribe of friends because of my dog. Like, my dog has become my child, and I have made not only new friendships, but new friends. Deepened existing friendships where I knew these moms, but it was actually the dog that was kind of the social glue. [00:16:43] And so now I have this whole tribe of moms that like literally are my neighbors because of my dog and at a drop of a dime It's like I'm in a jam. They can go get my kid. They can go pick up milk It's like this kind of like like network. So that's [00:17:00] how it's happened for me I love it. Yeah. So basically all three of your children have helped you develop kind of like this social circle around you, which is amazing. [00:17:09] I want to touch on another factor that you mentioned, which is around your partner. So So I would love to get like an inside look at how you've navigated your career and roles and responsibilities at home with your partner who also works and runs his own business. Yeah. I mean, I would say it's a work in progress. [00:17:31] I think anyone who's like, we've got it. I'm like good for you. But really, I think you have these like stages in your life, like from marriage to your first child to having more than one child to like changes in your career and you're kind of figuring it out. between the two of you and sometimes you get it right and other times you don't get it so right. [00:17:49] So I think, I mean, over the years, like what's worked for us is we've both recognized the fact that we need help, right? And so we've made the decision and as part of our [00:18:00] financial decision that, that we need to allocate. Certain part of our spending to that child care system, and I think being on the same page with your partner on that is really important, right, because if you're not, then it also creates tension around, well, why are we spending money on this and can we cut the hours, which can also be stressful. [00:18:18] I think when the kids were littler, I found that a lot of their physical needs in terms of feeding and cooking or doctor's appointments, that kind of fell more on me. And my husband really kind of took care of like more of like household stuff, something broke, you know, I'll deal with like the insurance. [00:18:37] So we kind of like divided and conquered that way as the kids got older. And also as my job. Got more stressful and his crazy early startup days to more like stability as his business grew We kind of traded off with each other where I was like I There was a part of my career where I was traveling a ton. [00:18:57] I was like, I can't do this. I can't take on [00:19:00] Figure out the summer for the kids. And so my husband took that on and he figures out like summer camps for the kids. And now as my kids are older, it's like we divide the children. Like he's focused on my son and focused on my daughter, or we split like the school communications where he's, he, he reads the stuff coming from my daughter's school. [00:19:18] I read the stuff that's coming from my son's school. And so. I think we have an open conversation around who's on and who's doing what, but there are certain household things around like shopping and cooking and food that I take on, primarily also because I just love to cook and my husband could not boil an egg to save his life. [00:19:37] And so some of that is also just by like choice and some of it is also by necessity, right? But I don't think we've gotten it right all the time, and I certainly feel like we're constantly re evaluating how we kind of divide and conquer to run this household together and raise our kids. It's, it's such a good reminder on two fronts. [00:19:59] [00:20:00] One, every stage of life with kids and your career is a work in progress, right? Like, especially as a high performing woman, like, You're never going to be okay with the status quo. And so things are always going to change and you're always going to make improvements to, to make it better. I know like personally, I'm always thinking about like, how do I optimize X, Y, Z part of my life? [00:20:20] Like whether I'm on vacation or like at my, my desk. So I think that's a really good reminder. And then the other thing I, I just wanted our listeners like really underscore, because you mentioned this earlier as well, which is. Who is taking on more between you and your partner doesn't need to be static. [00:20:36] Like you said, it can be dependent on factors at work or at home or mental health like it can be dependent on so many different things and like just because you make a Conscious choice now doesn't mean that's how it has to be forever And I think that's a really good reminder as well because I think when we're in the thick of it It's so hard to pull yourself out and remind yourself like this is temporary. [00:20:58] Yeah, I also [00:21:00] think You That there's this, what I call the mental load that women carry. And I think it becomes a source of stress and frustration because even as your kids get older and they're sleeping through the night and you're not like spoon feeding them, like for many women, whether you work or you don't, the mental load can feel very overwhelming and some partners get it and some partners don't. [00:21:21] And so I think I have friends who've done different things. Things like I have one friend who used her product marketing skills and literally PMM to her household and like did a spreadsheet and basically showed her husband all the stuff she does and what he does. And the point was not to say it was a scoreboard and had to be 50, 50. [00:21:39] The point was to articulate, there are some things that, that might feel invisible, but that someone is thinking about it and getting it done. Right. So that's kind of one way to like, just, you know, take the bull by the reins. I think the other way to think about it is to just do less and be okay with less. [00:21:58] And I think it gets easier [00:22:00] when your kids are older, right? Because you're like, okay, so they don't eat dinner. You, you kind of learn to loosen up a little bit because when they're little, you're like, oh my God, they have to get their nap in. Oh my God, they didn't drink enough milk. But I think as you get older, you kind of also have to let go of some things and just be like, it can't be on top of everything. [00:22:15] I can't have. Everything be a certain way and I have to figure out what my sacred cows are and, and Give myself time back. And so one of the things I started doing as my kids got older and as my jobs got continuously more stressful was I said to my kids, I need a time out for myself. Please don't bother me. [00:22:37] And I think that was a real, like the first time I said that to my kids, they were like, what's wrong with mommy. Mommy's always fully available to us. And so I do think. At least for me, there is something about the art of doing less and being okay with that so that you can recharge yourself. I, I love the mommy needs a time out. [00:22:59] I, honestly, I [00:23:00] think, I think my son would understand that at this point. Like, I may start doing that like, especially when you feel like you're about to like tip over the edge and be the parent that you don't want to be. Like, I love just taking a step back. Taking a breath and be like, I need a moment. [00:23:13] And I think that's honestly, it's like a good life skill to teach your kids. Again, I know during the pandemic, it was incredibly hard, especially on women. Cause everyone was at home. You were like cooking three meals a day. You were like cleaning and you literally were going to lose it. I think there was a New York times article about a mom who just started screaming because it was so overwhelming. [00:23:30] And I just remember like literally sitting in my closet in the dark for five minutes. Hiding in the bathroom. Yeah Just have a moment three breaths. And so whatever that is for you Like I think you need to like give yourself that absolutely so I wanna switch gears a little bit and I wanna talk about your experience in your career. So you've had an incredible career in so many different roles at like large tech [00:24:00] companies on the edge of like really making impact to the world. I would love to know how being a mother has changed your definition of success in your career. [00:24:10] Yeah, that's a really good question and I've thought a lot about it. I don't know if I have like a, like the pithy answer to that, but I think why you work and why you have a career is a very personal individual decision. Some people have to work for financial reasons, others because they have a sense of like, I want to accomplish certain things. [00:24:32] I want to learn certain things. And so I think success for me in your career has evolved in that I think what i'm looking for is am I learning and growing and am I surrounding myself with people Who challenge me with great teams that inspire me that I can inspire and While I wouldn't say that that wasn't like a true thread through the course of my career, I feel like I've been more conscious of that as I have kind of progressed [00:25:00] through my career, right? [00:25:01] Because going back to like time being this one commodity that, that you can't renew, like where you spend your time and what does that do for you is like something I think a lot about. And so certainly I think earlier in my career, success really meant Getting the promotion and the title and making more money. [00:25:22] And while all of those things are still like one thing I think about for my career, it's less about the external validation of like this title and accolades. And it's really more around like, what am I able to learn and contribute? Where can I continue to grow and contribute or make change? Right. That I think feels like success to me. [00:25:44] Right. Because you could have a job that looks great on paper, but you're like, Not really making an impact, however you define that. So I think that's become a lot more crystallized for me and I'm a lot more conscious about it, right? Like I care less about what other people think and more about what [00:26:00] I think, like, am I excited about this? [00:26:02] Do I get to work with someone I really admire? Do I get to learn about a new category? Do I get to push myself and feel scared? And I also think that I have, I've been very intentional about the kind of roles that I will look at and take through the course of being a mom, where I think when my kids were younger and was kind of an early mom, I made like conscious decisions to take certain jobs and not other jobs, right? [00:26:29] Because I did not feel like having to travel every week or every month was going to work for me or my family. Right. And that's a very individual decision for. people, but for me, I was just very realistic about like some of the physical and mental kind of pressures that I needed to figure out how to balance, especially when the kids were younger. [00:26:52] Yeah, I think that's good. Again, it's like having a clear idea of what your priorities are and making sure that you're meeting [00:27:00] those priorities with whatever job you decide to take. Something I always loved about you and your leadership style was that you've very intentionally like transparent. With your team about like whether that's internal politics going on or like taking personal time when it's needed and why and you've always Advocated for your team so well, and so I would love if you can talk a little bit about how leaders Can hone in on their communication style to be effective in their roles But also like advocate for themselves and advocate for their teams and I think the reason I ask is I I think a lot of women in general struggle with communication and, and being able to be that really strong advocate, but especially moms who I think maybe need those skills to make sure that they don't get overseen for a promotion, maybe because they took a leave for maternity or They maybe are less flexible for like being able to attend that happy hour after work. [00:27:58] And so what, what would you [00:28:00] recommend and how can you hone in on those communication skills? I mean, I think with, with all of those things in terms of how you lead and manage and how you communicate, it's probably, An evolution and I think of myself as a work in progress and it's often framed and informed by the people you've worked for and with whether it's someone that you've worked for that hasn't been so great and you're like, I'm never going to be that person to someone who's really inspired you and change how you think about leadership or, or how you navigate your career. [00:28:32] And so. I was fortunate enough through the course of my career to work for some really inspiring women. But like you, a lot of the people I worked with were not women. And so I think seeking out the right role models and being really intentional on the type of work environment and culture you want to put yourself into is, is something I would encourage all women, moms or not to, to think about. [00:28:56] And perhaps early in your career, you don't think about it as much. You just want to like get [00:29:00] that job. But I think. You need to be really thoughtful about what is the kind of culture I want to put myself into, what does this leadership team look like to me, and how, how does that work with my set of values and how I want to work, right? [00:29:15] And so, that's the first thing I would say people should think about. But specific to communication, I think we all need peers and managers who will lift us up. And who will encourage us, especially when we're early on in our career. And so what I would say is surround yourself with those types of people, right? [00:29:35] Like. I often say to, especially a lot of women and working moms, don't make yourself small in the room, take up the space, right? And advocate and communicate your point of view and your needs, but that doesn't come naturally, and so I think putting yourself in those environments where you have people you can look to, I think. [00:29:59] Is [00:30:00] really important. And I feel like if I had had that earlier in my career, not that I have regrets per se, I think I might have, I might have been a different kind of leader earlier, right? I might have like found my voice earlier. I might have been more of a, of like an advocate for myself earlier. And so you kind of muddle through that because through your experiences and on like, like having children and kind of Yeah. [00:30:26] Like, does that impede your career? I mean, there's plenty of studies that talk about this topic. And so I don't want to make it about stats, but what I would say is, I think you have to be really intentional about what you're willing to give up and not give up. And very clear about the kind of organization you join and the kind of person you work for to see if you will get the support you feel like you need. [00:30:49] And if you don't, then perhaps it's a reason for you to look elsewhere. But I have always felt that working moms are often the best [00:31:00] employees because they're the most efficient and best multi taskers that get work done. And maybe it's because I'm a mom and I'm a woman. I have never thought, oh, this is a working mom. [00:31:12] She can't handle it. In fact, it's the opposite. I'm like, give it to this woman because you know, it's going to get done. And so I think having those conversations early with your manager or with HR or whatever you're doing to understand like what the maternity leave policy is, what expectations are, what the culture is, I think is the work that women have to do for themselves. [00:31:31] And on the topic of maternity leave, did you take maternity leave with your, your children? I took maternity leave with both my kids. I think like maybe many. First time moms. I was like kind of nervous with my first maternity leave. So I took a shorter maternity leave. I took three months off because I felt nervous about being gone for so long and went back to work. [00:31:56] And, and, and for the most part, I had really great managers [00:32:00] and I didn't have a crazy commute, but I remember it being really hard. And I remember the transition back into work was super hard. And so when I had my second child, I was a lot more. I was wiser and I was a lot more confident about what my needs were. [00:32:16] And I took a longer maternity leave and I was fortunate enough that I worked for a company that was very supportive of women and had a generous maternity leave policy. But the reality is when you take maternity leave, the company's not going to be congratulations, Barbara. You've come back early in three months versus five months, right? [00:32:34] Like. Nobody's like, good for you, right? So like, you need to take the time you need. And to be honest, even like a five or six month maternity leave is still not a lot, right? I mean, you're still exhausted. And you have to remember the moment you come back to work, nobody is thinking, Oh, you're feeding in the middle of the night, you're only getting five hours of sleep, or you're up at five, they're thinking that you're back, you're on, and it's [00:33:00] full throttle. [00:33:00] And so you need to be able to pace your transition. And be realistic about, okay, do you have the support structure at home? Have you negotiated maybe a slower ramp back into work? Like whatever that is, like, I think you need to be realistic about what works for you because that initial transition back as a first time mom or the initial transition back as a mom of multiple children. [00:33:25] Um, is hard. And no one is, is, is like figuring out what that onboarding looks like for you. You're the one that has to drive that. So I always tell women that have worked for me, please take your maternity leave, take as much time as you need, because even when you come back, you're still going to be exhausted. [00:33:45] And I can personally vouch that. That is what you said. That's what you said to me and it made such a difference because I think when you're in it, you are so concerned about what's going on at work in this fast paced environment. Am I going to walk back to the same job? Like, what's it going to be like?[00:34:00] [00:34:00] You are so right. You're back for five days, and then that following Monday, nobody remembers that you were gone. And it's just so true to put that into perspective. It's, it's a blip in time for the company and those around you, but so meaningful for you to take. And I think when senior women take the maternity leave, They're really good role models and they're, they're kind of telling other women that it's okay to do that. [00:34:29] Right. Or if they take a shorter maternity leave, they're very clear around here's why, but then I'm kind of like only working part time on these days, right? Like. Whatever works for you, but I think articulating why you're doing that, especially if you're a senior woman, I think is really important in terms of driving culture and kind of setting the standard for other women who might be more junior in their career, but like starting to have kids of their own. [00:34:56] Leading by example, absolutely, but also just showing your [00:35:00] influence at that level, right? Like influencing that it is acceptable And getting your male co workers, like, comfortable with that idea as well is so important. And I think, I agree, that's like one of the most impactful things you can do is to, like, lead and take the lead. [00:35:15] Alright, so, speaking of taking a leave, as you mentioned earlier , you are currently on a very intentional pause, and this decision, right, was to step away from your career, to bring focus, spend more time with your family for self discovery, and we grabbed lunch, like, a month or two ago, and you just seemed so happy. [00:35:35] Like, I feel like you're in your hobbyist era right now and you are truly living your best life. That's what it seems like to me. And you, you were sharing so many stories about like how you're filling your days with like yoga and making all of these new friends and like really leaning into the dog community to make more friends. [00:35:50] And I want to unpack this a little bit. So I know family was obviously a part of your current pause, but it seems like a lot of it was like, you wanted to do this for yourself. And so can you [00:36:00] talk to me about like, What was the catalyst that brought this on, or like the feeling inside you, the voice that, that said it, now is the time to take this intentional pause? [00:36:09] I don't know if there was one specific catalyst. First of all, I think it's, it will always feel like it's never a good time to take time off or pause. I think you just can't plan life. I guess that's, that's, that's the, the, the meat of it. I think For me personally, there were a couple of catalysts, right? [00:36:29] We had a lot of like personal loss in the past couple of years. I'd come off a very kind of stressful role and I think I probably had enough time and space and perspective from some of the things that I was experiencing personally, as well as seeing very close friends have illness, whatever, to kind of have this like moment of like, I really think I need just To pause and invest in my family and, and have the time that I've never actually given myself, right? [00:36:58] Because the [00:37:00] fallacy is, is like, well, women know this, but returning to leave isn't a break, right? You're exhausted and it's not truly a break for yourself. And so I think it was a combination of the pandemic coming off of a pretty stressful set of roles. And my kids kind of, Entering a new chapter. We had some loss in the family that was all culminated into like, I need to like do this for myself. [00:37:26] And it wasn't an easy decision in that, like, rationally, if made sense, but emotionally, you're like, Oh, no, I should just do it. Go do the next thing. And then I think, I keep talking about time, but I think the reality is, is like just time just goes by like this, right? And I think early in my career it might have felt scarier to take a pause, but like maternity leave, like you take a pause and nobody bats an eye, nobody cares because At the end of the day, you have all these experiences. [00:37:57] You've done all of these things. And so [00:38:00] when you, when your glass is full and you recharge and re renew, you're a lot more intentional about what's important to you, whether it be in your personal life, your professional life. And the reality is, is even though I've taken a pause, I'm still like working, right, I'm still advising. [00:38:14] I still love marketing. I still CEOs and like geeking out on like, like how we think about marketing attribution, this world of like, yeah, how it's like, how it's just becoming harder and harder for marketers. And so I'm still like. engage in thinking about like, I guess the professional aspects of my career, but I'm giving myself the space and the luxury to, to do the things that perhaps I didn't have as much time to do. [00:38:41] And that's like being really intentional about my physical health and working out, putting myself first, right. Reconnecting, experiencing new friendships and having like my secret dog life, which. Wasn't planned, but just kind of happened. And, and kind of through those connections, I think [00:39:00] you also have perspectives around just like we as, as, as people and as humans are multifaceted, right? [00:39:06] But be it, we all have different interests and passions that we can explore in our personal and our professional life. And I feel like there's so many things I'm curious about and so many different things that I could and want to do. And so having kind of this canvas right now to do that is like super exciting and, and I know a lot of, I have a lot of friends who've taken like certain intentional pauses and they've like pivoted like and made different decisions around their career or different decisions around their life and so I think giving yourself the space to do that I think is certainly a luxury that I don't take for granted. [00:39:42] That one that I want to make sure that I really embrace because before you know it, I'll be back again, working full time. Once again, I will have to like rethink about, okay, where am I spending my time? And what does that new balance look like for me? Yeah, I'm curious. What's the [00:40:00] biggest thing you've learned about yourself during this break? [00:40:02] That I'm like a very curious person and that I have so many different interests that there are like all these different things that I could do. And people always like, aren't you bored? I'm like, Oh my God, no, I have so many things I want to read and do and think about and write. And so I feel like I have a cup that's overfilling, if that makes sense. [00:40:24] And also , You have taken a pause before this. This isn't your technical first pause. You went to culinary school at some point in your career. So I would love just to explore this. How did you decide I'm going to go to culinary school amongst my marketing career? Well, it's really funny and maybe because we are marketers, but when you look back at Like, if I look back at my professional life and my set of experiences, I can knit together a narrative around how all of these pieces fit together. [00:40:54] And, and the reality is, is me going to culinary school and working in a [00:41:00] kitchen, I worked at a Michelin star restaurant. I learned more about organizational design and leadership and management in the kitchen that I take and bring. With me in my corporate life, but and so all of those things do actually connect together Even though at the time when you're doing it, you're like, oh this seems kind of like Like a tangent so I just wanted to share that but in terms of like why I went to culinary school I was working in New York at the time. [00:41:28] I was I had this huge job and I was really burnt out I was working a lot and I had this passion. I've always loved food. I've always liked cooking and I was kind of like Should I scratch that itch? And I kind of have this perspective of, I can go do this thing and if, and if I love it, it will lead to other things or I'll just go back into the corporate world. [00:41:50] So I, I've always had that perspective because I feel like when you take a risk, although it didn't feel like a risk to me, it It, all it does is [00:42:00] it, it contributes to the multi layeredness of who you are as a person. And even though I went to culinary school and I, and I professionally got trained and I worked in a kitchen and I started my own business, all of those skills are applicable and you can transfer them, right? [00:42:14] Whether it be about leadership and organizational design and entrepreneurship, but I did that to scratch an itch. I did that because it was a passion. It was a real creative outlet for me and I loved it, but. Ultimately, when you cook for a career, it's just not as glamorous as you think it is. And what I realized was I actually miss the corporate world, but I felt like if I hadn't done that, I would have regretted not having done it. [00:42:40] And so I just, I feel like people should be brave to pursue their passions because when you look back at it in hindsight, everything does fit together. Even though at the time it might feel. Like it's a bit of a detour. It really isn't I love that and obviously that resonates [00:43:00] so much with me because i'm currently chasing a passion and I know a lot of listeners In in the new modern mom community have like reached out to me and been like your story resonates so much with me I have been thinking about like leaving my job to go do x y and z but like It's very scary, right? [00:43:16] It's, it's scary. Like you said, it's a, it feels like a risk, but I also think there's this immense fear around the perception and how you communicate that to like your inner circle, your friends and family, and then externally in like a professional capacity. And so I'm curious, like you said, everything weaves together in hindsight, but how would you recommend communicating that? [00:43:39] I'm. I'm going a different path. Like, how would you recommend for our listeners to be able to do that effectively where they feel confident in their decision? Well, I, I think it, I think it depends on who are you communicating this to, is it to yourself or to your spouse to get their support, or is it you're coming out of this transition and you're trying to go back [00:44:00] to what you did before or go back into something new, right? [00:44:02] Like, I, I think it's very contextual, right? And so, ultimately, I think what's the most important is what, what are you communicating to yourself about why you're doing this? Is it because I have a friend who was an investment banker who is actually now a famous Celebrity chef, but she was like, I want to be a celebrity chef. [00:44:22] And she like went down that route. And so for her, it was like a real career transition and change. And she was like all in right. Other people, this is like a passion that I want to scratch. I want to see if something comes off it and if it does great. And if it doesn't, then I'll reassess and figure out what I want to do. [00:44:40] Right. And so I feel like ultimately it's what you communicate to yourself and what you need to believe and why you're doing it. And then. How you convey it to everybody else, I think, really stems from you. When I was like, coming out of my culinary career, knowing that food will always be part of my life, but I [00:45:00] didn't want to like, work as a chef. [00:45:01] Like, they wanted me to stay in the kitchen. I had a catering business. When I was going back into the corporate world, nobody bat an eye. Everybody just, you know, Looked at my past corporate experience, but all they wanted to talk about was like my culinary experience, right? Because I think for them they were really interested in the entrepreneur aspect of it, the risk taking, the kind of like my observations of what I learned, right? [00:45:24] And so you'll be surprised when you do these things and And you're trying to like do the next thing. People are very fascinated about why you did these things. So I don't know. That's refreshing to hear because I think it does feel really scary. And I think the, the idea of leaving one job without having another job in that industry, like lined up is very scary to most people. [00:45:50] And. It's so refreshing to hear that, like, you don't think it impacted your career trajectory. It actually just brought on this whole, like, set of skills that you were able to apply to, like, your future job. And, like, [00:46:00] you can go back. You're proof that you can go back. And so, I, I guess my, my last question here is just around the timing of it, right? [00:46:08] Like, when is the right time to take an intentional pause as a working mom? I don't know if there is. Of right and wrong time, right? It's very individual and it's very contextual, right? And a couple of things. I think that I, I think some people need a break, but plan to go back to work and it's a short break. [00:46:31] So it almost doesn't matter. I think that the things I would think about is, well, what do I want of my career? And what are the things that I'm interested in? Right? And obviously if you have a proven record of. A certain set of experiences before you take your pause, it's easier to transition back, right? [00:46:51] As well as you need to make the decision of like, am I okay taking a lateral job, right? Am I okay maybe taking a step down if I've been out of the workforce for a [00:47:00] while? I'm not saying that that's needs to happen. I'm just saying you have to be kind of realistic, right? When having like five years of work experience before we take time off versus 10 years of work experience, it doesn't change, like, what's Better it just It just shapes like how you think about, okay, well, what does that mean for me? [00:47:21] And I think that the reality is, is like, there is no right or wrong time. You got to do what's right for you, but you need to be very bright about, well, how much time you're taking off, but what do you want for yourself in your career? Right? Like, I think it's very different for someone who's had like 10 years of work experience takes a year off and goes back to work versus someone who's worked for like three years. [00:47:42] It's trying to go back into work, right? Like those are just very different scenarios and you have to make a set of decisions around well What does that actually mean for me? You have to be very thoughtful about it But I think to your point right like it it may feel like a risk but if you're thoughtful about all of the different scenarios that you're gonna be [00:48:00] walking yourself back into and you're comfortable with that the results of taking that pause Are probably going to be worth it Like you said like you're discovering so much about yourself right now and in your first pause with culinary school You learned so much that you were able to bring into your next role and so I think what I just want to underscore for our listeners is like It shouldn't be this, this really scary thing. [00:48:21] If you feel like that's what you need to do for yourself. I mean, it goes back to life is about choices, right? And life is about what you're willing to give up or not give up. And what are the trade offs you're willing to make? And I think to assume that you're not making a choice at the expense of something else is just like unrealistic. [00:48:42] And so I think the more clear about your intentions, then the more you're Kind of aware of okay. Well, what is important to me and what I'm prioritizing? And so, you know, people often want A formula or do it this time and do it this way. And I think that [00:49:00] this is thing called life that you can't control and you have to make these decisions that make sense for yourself, but also in the context of your family and your partner and your situation. [00:49:09] And so it's naive for me to be like, Oh, do it this time and it will be fine. No, I think you have to like, have that conversation right with yourself and with your partner and with your family. Absolutely. I think to wrap it up, looking back, is there a mantra, an affirmation, like a one liner you would tell yourself in your hardest of days when it felt like work, motherhood, self identity were all colliding? [00:49:34] I don't, I don't know if I have like, like a, like a mantra per se, but one of the things which is like when things feel really hard for whatever reason, like the thing you have to remember is that time will pass. Right, the thing is everything is transient, you, you're not stuck, like you move on from that and time passes and so it might feel really hard now, but it's gonna feel less hard tomorrow and next week you'll be on [00:50:00] to something else and so I think if you, for me, This, this idea that love of like impermanence and like nothing is permanent and things are, uh, are constantly moving and evolving and flowing, I think has really helped me kind of navigate the highs and the lows, right? [00:50:17] Because when you're, when you're up, you're down, when you're down, you can only go up. And so nothing is permanent. Everything is temporary. What is the best way for listeners to connect with you after this? Well, you can always connect with me on LinkedIn if you want to talk all things marketing, tech, culture. [00:50:34] And then my Instagram handle is like more personal versus professional, but I like to post lots of photos of my dog and, and lots of photos of food. Let's, let's be real. I'm like, please adopt me when I see you posting everything that you're cooking for your kids. I'm so impressed. Yeah. So you can follow me on Instagram or you can follow me on LinkedIn. [00:50:53] Sam, thank you so much for being here. I so loved our chat today. And I, I feel like there's so much goodness [00:51:00] and wisdom that you shared. And I know our listeners are probably taking notes at home and really thinking about some of these bigger questions and putting them into perspective with your guidance. [00:51:08] So thank you so, so very much for being here. Well, thanks Barbara. This was so much fun. [00:51:13] Thanks for listening to this episode of the new modern mom podcast. I hope you can use the story shared today to simplify the chaos of career and motherhood. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. Give us a five star rating and leave a review. Please connect with me on LinkedIn and follow new modern mom on Instagram. [00:51:33] I know you're busy and I so appreciate your support for my mission to help more moms find work life fulfillment. And I have good news. The playbook doesn't end here. To get bonus strategies, tools, and takeaways from this guest, sign up for my newsletter at NewModernMom. com backslash subscribe. I promise you'll be filing this under a must [00:52:00] read.Author
